Nov 14, 2010
Christian Jewish Apologists
[SOURCE]:
Ben Abrahamson and Joseph Katz
Per the Jews,"How Islam was Really Created"
Christian Jewish Apologists believe Jesus Christ forgave the Jews, especially in the misguided sense of “Jews” being “God’s Chosen People” and in the misguided sense that God told the world that "whoever was against Israel, then God was against them"; hence they routinely forgive the Jews for any offence committed.
It is the contention of The Christian Solution, that the REAL nation of Israel converted to Christianity after Jesus Christ and that those Christians in Israel and elsewhere are the REAL ones whom God protects as his Chosen People today.
God expects much from His people. Certainly what happened to the Jews before Christ was radically modified after Christ.
Even Christian Jewish Apologists will not disagree with a statement that the Jesus-denying, bigoted, hate-filled Jews of the time of Jesus certainly had committed many sins against their own Messiah, for which they sorely needed to be forgiven for.
Don't believe me?
Open your Bible and read the REAL story of Jesus Christ...
After all that the Jesus-denying sect of Judaism did to Jesus, could they ever be forgiven of their sins? (We will prove that with conversion to Christianity, Jews could be forgiven)
Did the Jews who spat in the face of God ever ask forgiveness? (We will prove that most did eventually, that is, the ones who later converted to Christianity)
Did Jesus give them unconditional forgiveness, as many believe? (We will prove that he did not give forgiveness to the ones who continued to spurn the Good News)
Christian Jewish Apologists cite these last few words of Jesus Christ, spoken while on the cross, as proof that all Jews have been forgiven of all their sins -- without the need for confession or repentance.
Regardless of the countless times Jesus lashed out verbally against the hypocritical practices of the Jewish leadership and by default, the mindless Jews who followed them, Jesus always taught Christians the art of forgiveness and many Christians have mindlessly taken up the charge to "forgive the Jews”. That much is understandable.
But one cannot hear the Words of Christ on the Cross, think about those words for a few seconds, and still believe the meaning being intoned by the Christian Jewish Apologists.
These words - taken all alone, as they usually are -- tell us that Jesus wants God to forgive them unconditionally. But do the words of Jesus say that Jesus himself has forgiven the Jews?
No they do not!
I don’t even know for sure who Jesus is asking God to forgive.
Why is Jesus, the Son, praying to God, His Father, for forgiveness of Jews if forgiveness would have been a done deal for Jesus to simply and straightforwardly have said “I forgive the Jews”? Then we would not even be arguing if Jesus wanted the Romans to be forgiven for not knowing what they had done in the name of the Jews, instead of the real meaning wanted by Jewish Apologists for the Jews themselves to be forgiven.
In Jesus’ prayer to God, did the Jewish Apologists ever get God's response, which I didn’t get, about whether or not God actually forgave anyone – Romans or Jews?
For the sake of argument, we will concede the point and presume that both God and Jesus had forgiven the Jews, but we will not concede the point in the way implied by the Christian Jewish Apologists.
Of more import is what Christian Jewish apologists normally leave out in quoting Jesus. They leave off these remaining words of Jesus,
Even cold-blooded mass-murders, who know what they do, can be forgiven if they have a massive change in their lives and hearts and come to accept the goodness of Christ. They still must be punished for their crimes, but God tells us they can be forgiven.
Yet in the crucifixion, Jesus tells us they didn’t even know what they were doing.
In such cases there is nothing to forgive.
How can you forgive a killer if he didn’t mentally know he had killed?
How can you forgive a person driving a car which ran over a child if that person was driving in a responsible manner, but the child unexpectedly ran out from behind a car, giving no opportunity to stop fast enough? The driver had no intentions of doing harm.
Hence no need for forgiveness.
Jesus was asking God to forgive the nation of Israel because the nation of Israel had not yet learned or believed that Jesus was indeed the Son of God as he was telling them. They thought Him an apostate; not the real Messiah.
Of course those Jews could be forgiven.
Then over the years, what happened?
Most of those former Jesus-denying Jews did learn of the Word of the Lord and became Christians. For only then, did they know what sins they had done.
Somewhere between 325 AD and 600 AD, the Promised Lands were peacefully converted to Christianity.
Just as God saved the Jews by having Moses bring them from out of bondage, now Jesus Christ was well known and revered in the Nation of Israel as the savior of all mankind.
God’s Chosen People were now Jesus Christ’s Chosen People, including Gentiles all over the Roman Empire.
In fulfillment of the prophecies, Israel was forgiven, for now the Christian nation of Israel was a devout follower of the Messiah.
Never again would these former Jews in the nation of Israel, now followers of Christ, have had Jesus crucified. They would all have freely washed His feet.
These Christians were indeed forgiven of their sins, for Jesus promised us as much.
Over the years of early Christianity, did 100% of the Jews convert to Christianity? Absolutely not!
The Jews who had been living in the Persian Empire all this time were still deniers of Christ and wanted to convert Israel back to a Jesus-denying sect of Judaism.
Well convert is a bad word to use, because Jews do not convert, they kill the infidel, more so than the Muslims do.
In that year, the son of the Jewish Exilarch, the symbolic leader of the Persian troops Nehemiah ben Hushiel, led Persian armies into the Holy Lands in order to conquer the Holy Lands for Jesus-denying Jews.
Countless Christians were slaughtered, as the few Jews still living in sections of Israel rose up as a Fifth Column to help the Jewish-led Persian armies crush the Christians.
This conquest only lasted around 5 years before Christian leader Heraculas regained our Holy Lands, and then in revenge, took the battle straight into the heart of the protectors of the remaining Jews – the Persian Empire.
This left both an exhausted Christian Byzantine and a completely demolished Persian Empire – and of course, allowing for yet another “crisis opportunity” to do what the tiny Jewish community could not otherwise have done for themselves.
In 638 AD, Jesus-denying Jews living in Saudi Arabia, who believed Mohammad was the real Messiah, already having the second son of the Jewish Exilarch as his main advisor, converted to Islam, then signing up to be his top spiritual and policy advisers, led Arabic Muslim armies into the Holy Lands and conquered by military might, that which Jesus had conquered by The Word alone.
For helping Jews in 614 AD, the Persians not only had the Christian leader Heraculas utterly demolish everything they had, but now the Jews had their new benefactors, the Muslims, surge into Persia to convert them and their families to Islam.
Take that for siding with the Jews you Persian scum!
The invading Muslim hordes again slaughtered their formerly-Jewish, Christian-convert brothers, and then they set their sights on freeing their Jewish brethren moved to Spain by a pagan Roman leader years before during Jewish Bar Kokba revolts. The Muslim hordes spread across northern Africa and into Spain freeing these Sephardic Jews, only stopping at this point in order to allow the remaining Jesus-denying Jews to enjoy the next 800-years under Muslims in what they call, “Their Golden Age” (see http://www.thechristiansolution.com/Exilarch.html)
At some point in the intervening 2,000-year history after Christ came to Earth to delivered His Message to mankind, did God ever stop forgiving Jews for rejecting His Son or does God continue, generation after generation, to forgive the Jews, living and surrounded for 80 generations now by witnessing Christians – for the reason of them "know not what they had done”?
That is a question you will have to answer from your own heart.
Article located at:
http://www.thechristiansolution.com/doc2010/378_FatherForgiveThem.html
Christian Jewish Apologists
mistakenly
“Forgive the Jews”
[SOURCE]:
Ben Abrahamson and Joseph Katz
Per the Jews,"How Islam was Really Created"
Christian Jewish Apologists believe Jesus Christ forgave the Jews, especially in the misguided sense of “Jews” being “God’s Chosen People” and in the misguided sense that God told the world that "whoever was against Israel, then God was against them"; hence they routinely forgive the Jews for any offence committed.
It is the contention of The Christian Solution, that the REAL nation of Israel converted to Christianity after Jesus Christ and that those Christians in Israel and elsewhere are the REAL ones whom God protects as his Chosen People today.
God expects much from His people. Certainly what happened to the Jews before Christ was radically modified after Christ.
Even Christian Jewish Apologists will not disagree with a statement that the Jesus-denying, bigoted, hate-filled Jews of the time of Jesus certainly had committed many sins against their own Messiah, for which they sorely needed to be forgiven for.
Don't believe me?
Open your Bible and read the REAL story of Jesus Christ...
King Herod, the leader of the Jews, massacred innocent children in order to kill the infant Jesus
[King Herod] ordered the massacre of all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity two years old and under…-- Matthew 2:16
Our Lord tells us that the Jewish scribes and Jewish Pharisees who deny Him will not enter Heaven
I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven – Matthew 5:20 For if you had believed in Moses, you would have believed in me, because he wrote about me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words? – John 5:46
The Jewish authorities believe Jesus to be a common criminal
…the chief priests and the Pharisees sent guards to arrest him. John 7:32
Jesus was to die simply because it was good for the Jews
[Caiaphas] prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation [of Israel], and not only for the nation, but also to gather into one the dispersed children of God. – John 11:51-52
Annas, the Jewish High Priest, condemns Jesus by sending him as a prisoner to another Jewish High Priest -- Caiaphas
The High Priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and about his doctrine….Then Annas sent Him bound to Caiaphas the high priest – John 18:19 – John 18:24
The entire nation of Israel condemns Jesus -- so says Pontius Pilate
Pilate answered, “…your own nation [of Israel] and the chief priests handed you over to me.” – John 18:35
An appeal for mercy on Jesus is denied by the Jews
[Pilate] again went out to the Jews and said to them. “I find no guilt in Him.”…Do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?” They cried out again, “Not this one but Barabbas.” – John 18:38-40
No mercy for Jesus by the Jews even after a scourge
Then Pilate took Jesus and had him scourged…Jesus came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple cloak, and he said to them, “Behold, the man!” When the chief priests and the guards saw Him they cried out, “Crucify Him! Crucify Him!” – John 19:1-6
Rejecting a call for compassion, Jews force a Pagan Roman to follow Jewish religious law
Pilate said to them, “Take Him yourselves and crucify Him. I find no guilt in Him.” The Jews answered, “We have a law, and according to that law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God.” – John 19:6-7
The Holier-than-Thou Jews would rather follow a Roman pagan ruler than listen to the Word of the Lord
And he said to the Jews, “Behold, your King!” They cried out, Take Him away, take Him away! Crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your king? The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar. -- John 19:14-15
"Father, forgive them,
they know not what they do"
they know not what they do"
After all that the Jesus-denying sect of Judaism did to Jesus, could they ever be forgiven of their sins? (We will prove that with conversion to Christianity, Jews could be forgiven)
Did the Jews who spat in the face of God ever ask forgiveness? (We will prove that most did eventually, that is, the ones who later converted to Christianity)
Did Jesus give them unconditional forgiveness, as many believe? (We will prove that he did not give forgiveness to the ones who continued to spurn the Good News)
Christian Jewish Apologists cite these last few words of Jesus Christ, spoken while on the cross, as proof that all Jews have been forgiven of all their sins -- without the need for confession or repentance.
When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him and the criminals there. Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do" -- Luke 23:33-34
Regardless of the countless times Jesus lashed out verbally against the hypocritical practices of the Jewish leadership and by default, the mindless Jews who followed them, Jesus always taught Christians the art of forgiveness and many Christians have mindlessly taken up the charge to "forgive the Jews”. That much is understandable.
But one cannot hear the Words of Christ on the Cross, think about those words for a few seconds, and still believe the meaning being intoned by the Christian Jewish Apologists.
“Father, forgive them…”
These words - taken all alone, as they usually are -- tell us that Jesus wants God to forgive them unconditionally. But do the words of Jesus say that Jesus himself has forgiven the Jews?
No they do not!
I don’t even know for sure who Jesus is asking God to forgive.
Why is Jesus, the Son, praying to God, His Father, for forgiveness of Jews if forgiveness would have been a done deal for Jesus to simply and straightforwardly have said “I forgive the Jews”? Then we would not even be arguing if Jesus wanted the Romans to be forgiven for not knowing what they had done in the name of the Jews, instead of the real meaning wanted by Jewish Apologists for the Jews themselves to be forgiven.
In Jesus’ prayer to God, did the Jewish Apologists ever get God's response, which I didn’t get, about whether or not God actually forgave anyone – Romans or Jews?
For the sake of argument, we will concede the point and presume that both God and Jesus had forgiven the Jews, but we will not concede the point in the way implied by the Christian Jewish Apologists.
Of more import is what Christian Jewish apologists normally leave out in quoting Jesus. They leave off these remaining words of Jesus,
“…they know not what they do.”
Even cold-blooded mass-murders, who know what they do, can be forgiven if they have a massive change in their lives and hearts and come to accept the goodness of Christ. They still must be punished for their crimes, but God tells us they can be forgiven.
Yet in the crucifixion, Jesus tells us they didn’t even know what they were doing.
In such cases there is nothing to forgive.
How can you forgive a killer if he didn’t mentally know he had killed?
How can you forgive a person driving a car which ran over a child if that person was driving in a responsible manner, but the child unexpectedly ran out from behind a car, giving no opportunity to stop fast enough? The driver had no intentions of doing harm.
Hence no need for forgiveness.
Jesus was asking God to forgive the nation of Israel because the nation of Israel had not yet learned or believed that Jesus was indeed the Son of God as he was telling them. They thought Him an apostate; not the real Messiah.
Of course those Jews could be forgiven.
The Nation of Israel becomes Christian
Then over the years, what happened?
Most of those former Jesus-denying Jews did learn of the Word of the Lord and became Christians. For only then, did they know what sins they had done.
Somewhere between 325 AD and 600 AD, the Promised Lands were peacefully converted to Christianity.
Spread of Christianity to AD 325 Spread of Christianity to AD 600 |
God’s Chosen People were now Jesus Christ’s Chosen People, including Gentiles all over the Roman Empire.
In fulfillment of the prophecies, Israel was forgiven, for now the Christian nation of Israel was a devout follower of the Messiah.
Never again would these former Jews in the nation of Israel, now followers of Christ, have had Jesus crucified. They would all have freely washed His feet.
These Christians were indeed forgiven of their sins, for Jesus promised us as much.
The Rest of the Story
Over the years of early Christianity, did 100% of the Jews convert to Christianity? Absolutely not!
The Jews who had been living in the Persian Empire all this time were still deniers of Christ and wanted to convert Israel back to a Jesus-denying sect of Judaism.
Well convert is a bad word to use, because Jews do not convert, they kill the infidel, more so than the Muslims do.
“You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that, it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before”,
says one sage Jewish leader today. (Rahm Emanuel)
In that year, the son of the Jewish Exilarch, the symbolic leader of the Persian troops Nehemiah ben Hushiel, led Persian armies into the Holy Lands in order to conquer the Holy Lands for Jesus-denying Jews.
Countless Christians were slaughtered, as the few Jews still living in sections of Israel rose up as a Fifth Column to help the Jewish-led Persian armies crush the Christians.
This conquest only lasted around 5 years before Christian leader Heraculas regained our Holy Lands, and then in revenge, took the battle straight into the heart of the protectors of the remaining Jews – the Persian Empire.
This left both an exhausted Christian Byzantine and a completely demolished Persian Empire – and of course, allowing for yet another “crisis opportunity” to do what the tiny Jewish community could not otherwise have done for themselves.
In 638 AD, Jesus-denying Jews living in Saudi Arabia, who believed Mohammad was the real Messiah, already having the second son of the Jewish Exilarch as his main advisor, converted to Islam, then signing up to be his top spiritual and policy advisers, led Arabic Muslim armies into the Holy Lands and conquered by military might, that which Jesus had conquered by The Word alone.
For helping Jews in 614 AD, the Persians not only had the Christian leader Heraculas utterly demolish everything they had, but now the Jews had their new benefactors, the Muslims, surge into Persia to convert them and their families to Islam.
Take that for siding with the Jews you Persian scum!
The invading Muslim hordes again slaughtered their formerly-Jewish, Christian-convert brothers, and then they set their sights on freeing their Jewish brethren moved to Spain by a pagan Roman leader years before during Jewish Bar Kokba revolts. The Muslim hordes spread across northern Africa and into Spain freeing these Sephardic Jews, only stopping at this point in order to allow the remaining Jesus-denying Jews to enjoy the next 800-years under Muslims in what they call, “Their Golden Age” (see http://www.thechristiansolution.com/Exilarch.html)
At some point in the intervening 2,000-year history after Christ came to Earth to delivered His Message to mankind, did God ever stop forgiving Jews for rejecting His Son or does God continue, generation after generation, to forgive the Jews, living and surrounded for 80 generations now by witnessing Christians – for the reason of them "know not what they had done”?
That is a question you will have to answer from your own heart.
| You can read further at | The Problem |
| You can read further at | Guide to "Checks and Balances" |
| You can read further at | The Solution |
| Write us at | letters@thechristiansolution.com |
Article located at:
http://www.thechristiansolution.com/doc2010/378_FatherForgiveThem.html
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